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	<title>Comments for Posts technical---or quite simplistic</title>
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	<link>http://dnquark.com/blog</link>
	<description>Threads both sad and humoristic / небрежный плод моих забав ...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:50:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Emacs + Evil = ecumenicalism by Michael Markert</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2012/02/emacs-evil-ecumenicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Markert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnquark.com/blog/?p=251#comment-480</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your insightful post, great that there are some people who come from Emacs to modal editing via Evil :)

Some points to add:

@Combining Commands
vfa; can also be written as v2fa just to demonstrate that f(ind) and t(o) also take numeric arguments (think of M-2 for the rest of Emacs). Also most other (motion) commands take numeric arguments.

Evil supports text objects so you can also define your di$KEY to delete inside such a text object. (For more see evil-commands.el)

@Defining normal mode commands
From the Merge Request emerged the evil-leader package, to be found here: https://github.com/cofi/evil-leader (I also added it now to the plugins list on emacswiki/Evil)

@My dotfiles
cofi-evil.el depends on cofi-util.el and the cl package, if you copied code and something fails look there ;) (well and the other `require&#039;d packages)

evil-{define,declare}-key support also more than one definition at a time to keep your key bindings clean.

I mapped my CapsLock to Ctrl and use `jk&#039; to exit insert mode (look for cofi/evil-maybe-exit) because this way using other Emacs packages (that sadly never heard about Evil) is way easier. You can also exit insert state via C-[ but that&#039;s quite cumbersome.

Last but not least: Evil is discussed at the vim-emulation mailing list also accessible via gmane: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.vim-emulation that surely should also go into the &#039;Where you can learn more&#039; list ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your insightful post, great that there are some people who come from Emacs to modal editing via Evil :)</p>
<p>Some points to add:</p>
<p>@Combining Commands<br />
vfa; can also be written as v2fa just to demonstrate that f(ind) and t(o) also take numeric arguments (think of M-2 for the rest of Emacs). Also most other (motion) commands take numeric arguments.</p>
<p>Evil supports text objects so you can also define your di$KEY to delete inside such a text object. (For more see evil-commands.el)</p>
<p>@Defining normal mode commands<br />
From the Merge Request emerged the evil-leader package, to be found here: <a href="https://github.com/cofi/evil-leader" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/cofi/evil-leader</a> (I also added it now to the plugins list on emacswiki/Evil)</p>
<p>@My dotfiles<br />
cofi-evil.el depends on cofi-util.el and the cl package, if you copied code and something fails look there ;) (well and the other `require'd packages)</p>
<p>evil-{define,declare}-key support also more than one definition at a time to keep your key bindings clean.</p>
<p>I mapped my CapsLock to Ctrl and use `jk' to exit insert mode (look for cofi/evil-maybe-exit) because this way using other Emacs packages (that sadly never heard about Evil) is way easier. You can also exit insert state via C-[ but that's quite cumbersome.</p>
<p>Last but not least: Evil is discussed at the vim-emulation mailing list also accessible via gmane: <a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.vim-emulation" rel="nofollow">http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.vim-emulation</a> that surely should also go into the 'Where you can learn more' list ;)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Emacs + Evil = ecumenicalism by dnquark</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2012/02/emacs-evil-ecumenicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator>dnquark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnquark.com/blog/?p=251#comment-479</guid>
		<description>@eric: Actually, the point that you make is pretty important, and better captures the Emacs/Vim selection behavior difference than my description. Also, IIUC, &quot;between characters&quot; is also the correct way to think of the cursor positioning in vi insert mode, while &quot;on character&quot; is the visual/normal state behavior.  So perhaps the asymmetry between Emacs and vi is really a consequence of that &quot;internal asymmetry&quot; in vi itself.

The reason it&#039;s important to think about this is that using some Emacs motion commands while in Evil normal/visual mode results in unexpected or incorrect (usually, in the off-by-one sense) behavior due to the different underlying model of the cursor positioning.  Sexp-motion commands are the key culprits here, but there might be others.  Ideally, I&#039;d like to see Evil compensating for this difference in behavior (see &lt;a href=&quot;https://bitbucket.org/lyro/evil/issue/109/make-paren-highlighting-consistent-with&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this discussion&lt;/a&gt;), but it&#039;s somewhat subtle and I personally don&#039;t have a clear conception of how one would do this in such a way as to preserve behavior that&#039;s sensible for Emacs without breaking Vim commands.

(Alternatively, someone could tell me how to navigate through code in Evil effectively without resorting to sexp-motions. I have found them to be very handy, and I know seasoned Emacs users that swear by them for any sort of code navigation.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@eric: Actually, the point that you make is pretty important, and better captures the Emacs/Vim selection behavior difference than my description. Also, IIUC, "between characters" is also the correct way to think of the cursor positioning in vi insert mode, while "on character" is the visual/normal state behavior.  So perhaps the asymmetry between Emacs and vi is really a consequence of that "internal asymmetry" in vi itself.</p>
<p>The reason it's important to think about this is that using some Emacs motion commands while in Evil normal/visual mode results in unexpected or incorrect (usually, in the off-by-one sense) behavior due to the different underlying model of the cursor positioning.  Sexp-motion commands are the key culprits here, but there might be others.  Ideally, I'd like to see Evil compensating for this difference in behavior (see <a href="https://bitbucket.org/lyro/evil/issue/109/make-paren-highlighting-consistent-with" rel="nofollow">this discussion</a>), but it's somewhat subtle and I personally don't have a clear conception of how one would do this in such a way as to preserve behavior that's sensible for Emacs without breaking Vim commands.</p>
<p>(Alternatively, someone could tell me how to navigate through code in Evil effectively without resorting to sexp-motions. I have found them to be very handy, and I know seasoned Emacs users that swear by them for any sort of code navigation.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Emacs + Evil = ecumenicalism by eric</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2012/02/emacs-evil-ecumenicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-478</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnquark.com/blog/?p=251#comment-478</guid>
		<description>I am a long time (very long time) user of Emacs who learned vi on Unix V7 in ancient times and had always pined for a modal editor.  Evil has been a fantastic development, managing to combine modal editing with Emacs in a way that other attempts hadn&#039;t managed.  Your blog is a good description of the issues that do arise and I enjoyed reading it.

One minor possibly pedantic point: I would argue that there is no asymmetry in how Emacs handles selections.  The key difference between Emacs and vi is that in emacs the position is always &quot;between&quot; characters where in vi it is &quot;on&quot; a character.  For this reason, I have always set the cursor in Emacs to be a vertical bar to highlight this aspect.  When using evil, I keep the cursor as a block.  The difference positioning between the modes is then made visually clear.

Thanks again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a long time (very long time) user of Emacs who learned vi on Unix V7 in ancient times and had always pined for a modal editor.  Evil has been a fantastic development, managing to combine modal editing with Emacs in a way that other attempts hadn't managed.  Your blog is a good description of the issues that do arise and I enjoyed reading it.</p>
<p>One minor possibly pedantic point: I would argue that there is no asymmetry in how Emacs handles selections.  The key difference between Emacs and vi is that in emacs the position is always "between" characters where in vi it is "on" a character.  For this reason, I have always set the cursor in Emacs to be a vertical bar to highlight this aspect.  When using evil, I keep the cursor as a block.  The difference positioning between the modes is then made visually clear.</p>
<p>Thanks again!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Emacs + Evil = ecumenicalism by Arne Babenhauserheide</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2012/02/emacs-evil-ecumenicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-476</link>
		<dc:creator>Arne Babenhauserheide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnquark.com/blog/?p=251#comment-476</guid>
		<description>I use control-lock-mode to achieve the same, without sacrifizing all the knowledge of useful key-combinations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use control-lock-mode to achieve the same, without sacrifizing all the knowledge of useful key-combinations.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Emacs + Evil = ecumenicalism by fs</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2012/02/emacs-evil-ecumenicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-475</link>
		<dc:creator>fs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnquark.com/blog/?p=251#comment-475</guid>
		<description>As a Vim user moving to Emacs/evil, I already have CapsLock mapped to ESC as you do, but I also swapped rctrl and ralt so I can hit M- with my left thumb and C- with my right. Might want to give it a try, for those chords you can&#039;t avoid :) I did this systemwide with xmodmap, actually - it comes in handy in other programs too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Vim user moving to Emacs/evil, I already have CapsLock mapped to ESC as you do, but I also swapped rctrl and ralt so I can hit M- with my left thumb and C- with my right. Might want to give it a try, for those chords you can't avoid :) I did this systemwide with xmodmap, actually - it comes in handy in other programs too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Emacs + Evil = ecumenicalism by Titus</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2012/02/emacs-evil-ecumenicalism/comment-page-1/#comment-471</link>
		<dc:creator>Titus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 22:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnquark.com/blog/?p=251#comment-471</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, very useful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, very useful!</p>
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		<title>Comment on That-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named (on Mathgroup) by dnquark</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2009/11/that-which-must-not-be-named-on-mathgroup/comment-page-1/#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator>dnquark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 08:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dnquark.com/blog/?p=85#comment-267</guid>
		<description>1. I appreciate Steven Christensen&#039;s efforts, and I&#039;m willing to believe his contribution elevated the quality of discussion on Mathgroup back in the day.  But today, such moderation just strikes one as odd, particularly because the target audience here is extremely highly educated, (hopefully) mature, and are quite capable of conducting themselves nicely.  Experiencing mid-1990s style moderation in the year 2011 is very strange.  (Of course, the entire smc.vnet.net domain is a blast from the past, so maybe it&#039;s all part of an immersive experience to make me feel nostalgic about the olden days of 486s and 14.4kbps modems).

2. SO is awesome.  I&#039;m on it.  Furthermore, it is another reason for why moderation on Mathgroup is completely unnecessary: newbies can get their questions answered on SO, while the more sophisticated crowd can engage with Mathgroup luminaries. 

3. Yes, having plots be very general is, in principle, desirable. Unfortunately, without a good interface (something akin to what Matlab provides) this generality is useless.  I recently spent a whole day (!) reformatting a single plot to prepare it for publication.  Manually changing line styles and fonts by constructing complex pattern-based replacement expressions, but that was the easy part.  MMA PDF export is spectacularly bad: it&#039;s anything but WYSIWYG and requires much trial and error to get right.  Next time I&#039;m doing this in Inkscape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. I appreciate Steven Christensen's efforts, and I'm willing to believe his contribution elevated the quality of discussion on Mathgroup back in the day.  But today, such moderation just strikes one as odd, particularly because the target audience here is extremely highly educated, (hopefully) mature, and are quite capable of conducting themselves nicely.  Experiencing mid-1990s style moderation in the year 2011 is very strange.  (Of course, the entire smc.vnet.net domain is a blast from the past, so maybe it's all part of an immersive experience to make me feel nostalgic about the olden days of 486s and 14.4kbps modems).</p>
<p>2. SO is awesome.  I'm on it.  Furthermore, it is another reason for why moderation on Mathgroup is completely unnecessary: newbies can get their questions answered on SO, while the more sophisticated crowd can engage with Mathgroup luminaries. </p>
<p>3. Yes, having plots be very general is, in principle, desirable. Unfortunately, without a good interface (something akin to what Matlab provides) this generality is useless.  I recently spent a whole day (!) reformatting a single plot to prepare it for publication.  Manually changing line styles and fonts by constructing complex pattern-based replacement expressions, but that was the easy part.  MMA PDF export is spectacularly bad: it's anything but WYSIWYG and requires much trial and error to get right.  Next time I'm doing this in Inkscape.</p>
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		<title>Comment on That-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named (on Mathgroup) by telefunkenvf14</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2009/11/that-which-must-not-be-named-on-mathgroup/comment-page-1/#comment-266</link>
		<dc:creator>telefunkenvf14</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 May 2011 08:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dnquark.com/blog/?p=85#comment-266</guid>
		<description>I stumbled across your blog while searching for something else... Anyways, two comments about MathGroup:

1. MathGroup is moderated by a single guy, and he isn&#039;t paid to do it. Yikes. I&#039;ve also had references to other CAS systems and Matlab censored --- and received an email explaining why, which was nice. Basically, past flame wars lead the volunteer moderator to adopt the do-not-mention policy. Annoying, but I understand the time and energy this must save him.

2. You should join StackOverflow.com, if you haven&#039;t already done so. It is a much better/faster place to get MMA help, and the site is set up to publicly reward the best answers, good questions, and useful comments with reputation points.

One final thought, about plotting in MMA, which you mentioned in another post...

I agree that it can be a PITA sometimes to get things to look right, but plotting functions seem to fit the MMA design pattern of &#039;make things as general as possible&#039;. Hopefully things will continue to improve---as I&#039;m sure they will---given that all the Wolfram&#124;Alpha plots are produced by Mathematica in the background (and they look great, IMO). 

If you&#039;ve upgraded to version 8, you might try using the link to Wolfram&#124;Alpha; send it your data, have it generate the plot, and then just grab that &#039;pod&#039; of W&#124;A output.

The Demonstrations Project is also good source of plot customization code and examples.

GIMP (open source) alternative to Photoshop may also be able to handle the necessary post processing, if you&#039;re sick of trying to code perfection in MMA.

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stumbled across your blog while searching for something else... Anyways, two comments about MathGroup:</p>
<p>1. MathGroup is moderated by a single guy, and he isn't paid to do it. Yikes. I've also had references to other CAS systems and Matlab censored --- and received an email explaining why, which was nice. Basically, past flame wars lead the volunteer moderator to adopt the do-not-mention policy. Annoying, but I understand the time and energy this must save him.</p>
<p>2. You should join StackOverflow.com, if you haven't already done so. It is a much better/faster place to get MMA help, and the site is set up to publicly reward the best answers, good questions, and useful comments with reputation points.</p>
<p>One final thought, about plotting in MMA, which you mentioned in another post...</p>
<p>I agree that it can be a PITA sometimes to get things to look right, but plotting functions seem to fit the MMA design pattern of 'make things as general as possible'. Hopefully things will continue to improve---as I'm sure they will---given that all the Wolfram|Alpha plots are produced by Mathematica in the background (and they look great, IMO). </p>
<p>If you've upgraded to version 8, you might try using the link to Wolfram|Alpha; send it your data, have it generate the plot, and then just grab that 'pod' of W|A output.</p>
<p>The Demonstrations Project is also good source of plot customization code and examples.</p>
<p>GIMP (open source) alternative to Photoshop may also be able to handle the necessary post processing, if you're sick of trying to code perfection in MMA.</p>
<p>:)</p>
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		<title>Comment on That-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named (on Mathgroup) by Yaroslav Bulatov</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2009/11/that-which-must-not-be-named-on-mathgroup/comment-page-1/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>Yaroslav Bulatov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 08:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dnquark.com/blog/?p=85#comment-264</guid>
		<description>&quot;No mentions of competing products&quot; is part of Mathgroup moderation policy. It can be hard to tell what is a competing product, last time my message was censored for mentioning &quot;GAP&quot;. A couple of times I posted a message and it didn&#039;t make it to the list at all, apparently couple of other users had same problem</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"No mentions of competing products" is part of Mathgroup moderation policy. It can be hard to tell what is a competing product, last time my message was censored for mentioning "GAP". A couple of times I posted a message and it didn't make it to the list at all, apparently couple of other users had same problem</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mathematica, 2.5 hours.  Matlab, 47 seconds.  Not impressed, WRI, not impressed. by Greg Klopper</title>
		<link>http://dnquark.com/blog/2009/07/mathematica-2-5-hours-matlab-47-seconds-not-impressed-wri-not-impressed/comment-page-1/#comment-263</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Klopper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2011 18:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dnquark.com/blog/?p=29#comment-263</guid>
		<description>ALWAYS compile numeric functions. The performance boost is phenomenal to say the least. I&#039;m not even talking about C compiling in version 8, just using the built-in Compile function to get away from symbolic/interpreted code. Also, give numeric attribute to your numeric functions. That way the interpreter knows that given a set of numbers, the result will never be symbolic, but also a number.

But comparing a true symbolic calculation engine against a purely numeric one is rather unfair. You can add extra effort to ask Mathematica to treat your input as purely numeric (like NIntegrate), but good luck getting Matlab to do some of the fascinating things that Mathematica can do out of the box (even if they take a bit of time, because a symbol&#039;s representation and checking its various values under various conditions takes longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ALWAYS compile numeric functions. The performance boost is phenomenal to say the least. I'm not even talking about C compiling in version 8, just using the built-in Compile function to get away from symbolic/interpreted code. Also, give numeric attribute to your numeric functions. That way the interpreter knows that given a set of numbers, the result will never be symbolic, but also a number.</p>
<p>But comparing a true symbolic calculation engine against a purely numeric one is rather unfair. You can add extra effort to ask Mathematica to treat your input as purely numeric (like NIntegrate), but good luck getting Matlab to do some of the fascinating things that Mathematica can do out of the box (even if they take a bit of time, because a symbol's representation and checking its various values under various conditions takes longer).</p>
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